Apparently, Theo Parrish is pissing people off by charging more than the “standard” amount of money for some of his new “limited” records. This is something Moodymann has been criticized for in the past as well. In fact, I criticized DeepChord for similar practices in a post 3 years ago. I have to say that in the years that have gone by, my opinion has changed. I originally thought that resale prices would get crazier than their original prices. Long term, most of those DeepChord double packs resell for approximately what they sold for new in the first place. One of my least favorite aspects of the record business is the resale market where dealers mark up records to astronomical prices, and the original artist sees NO MONEY from this. For small pressing records that have been out of print for decades, there isn’t much you can do about that. With brand new records though, there are more options.
What has been going on recently with Moodymann and Theo Parrish records has been particularly heinous. Records that are just out brand new have been bought up by speculators who then turn around and sell on Discogs or Ebay for crazy prices because they are no longer available elsewhere. You have no choice if you want the record and you didn’t happen to do an order the hour it was available in the shops. Malik Pittman’s Unirhythm Green record suffered a similar fate. This is NOT good for the actual fans and people who want to support the artists because they are paying some joker inflated prices to basically be ticket scalpers. By charging more than the standard amount of money, the number of speculators is going to be severely limited, especially if there is no guarantee that the price will go up from its already high going rate. It also means that records will be available longer in the stores at their retail price. Best of all, it means that the extra money paid actually goes to the artist, label, and record store as opposed to the speculating reseller.
Perhaps it is my own ventures in the record slanging business that has made me rethink the economics of selling new records, but I have to say that the artist and label getting paid and fans getting the records they want are the most important aspects of the hustle. Cutting out the middle man (except for those who really sleep) and being more fair albeit at a higher price is definitely one solution for limited press records that are in high demand that so far seems to work a little bit better than the old way. Is this going to be a viable solution for every artist (or even every release by Theo and Kenny)? I seriously doubt it. Their positions are quite distinct as I can’t think of any current artists whose new music changes hands at such consistently high prices. These guys are not morons, they know what is going on with this shit. Other artists/labels are welcome to try similar methods, but the results are probably not going to be the same.
That said, I always prefer good music to be more widely available. Of course, that isn’t how some people want to do things. I would like to see more sanity in how in demand limited pressings end up being sold, and this is definitely one step in a different direction. Only a fool would pay the crazy prices for the Sketches LP on Discogs. How long will these be for sale at those prices with no buyers before the price comes down closer to what it originally sold for? I didn’t follow the secondhand DeepChord prices this whole time, but looking back with three years hindsight it seems that the original asking price was relatively fair for the demand. Everybody wins.
What it all boils down to for me in the end is that I know what I like, and I have no problem paying money for things that I like. I generally don’t spend crazy dough on second hand records because that money is going to people who did nothing aside from finding a copy of a record for less than they’re selling it to you for. So I keep digging for deals. With new records, I decide if something is too much money by comparing how much I like it to how much money I have and am willing to spend. If it doesn’t add up, I don’t buy it. If it does, I do. Theo’s recent remix on a Japanese import label was selling for close to $30 new, and I didn’t think it was worth that so I passed on it. I don’t really harbor any anger about it. The Amerie/Lil Louis mashup was worth the money, so I paid it. End of story.
81 Comments
Is that Sketches LP actually any good? Or just rare? Crazy prices….
I’m pretty sure those Deepchord records weren’t as limited as the Theo ones, hence the reselling not going too well. They were plastered with remixes too. And they don’t have the same sort of rabid fan base that Theo does. Theo KNOWS he has the sort of fans who will fork out money for his records. Don’t for a second think he doesn’t.
People will buy those records just because they are rare. You can call them foolish or whatever, but they exist, Theo knows they exist and low and behold his records sell. That is not a decent thing to do. Touts will go straight for these limited edition records. Don’t think for a second it is putting them off or making it that only fans will buy it.
We are a niche audience in this day and age (vinyl collectors). How about we stick together and not prey on others love and dedication to the medium. You can say “why should an artist care, when re-sellers won’t” cause I expect a modicum of respect to be handed out to fans who support artists. Look at how Omar sells his records at such a reasonable price from his website. Now there is someone who is such a hype name that he could be at this too. he doesn’t feel the need from what I can see. For all the joking about Omar being a messer who doesn’t give a fuck about anyone, well where does Theo sit then ha.
Lets look at that Pittman record. The Unigreen was pressed up with 500 copies. I got it no problem as did some others. It was a truly bizarre thing that happened there, I feel. I still can’t figure out the hype with it. (bar folk having a shit attack cause it was billed as limited and from a detroit house guy) It is a really good record, but not his best. And then what did he do? He repressed it, killing off the silly prices.
Nice one Mr Pittman. I respect that.
That’s how you kill off the touts. You do a decent sized run at a decent price for what is already a niche market. You don’t be greedy. You are working at the same level as the touts by charging twice the price for the record. Too many people feel they NEED to buy these records cause they will be rare in the future. That shouldn’t be how one thinks about buying records. But as I said, thats how some do work and Theo/Kenny etc know that. I’m just not into that sort of thinking. I don’t care who you are or what your music is.
I love almost everything KDJ & Theo have done but as soon as their selling price hits anything over the standard I don’t buy it. I just don’t care enough, it comes down to principle for me. For the love of christ its a f@cking record man…who gives a shit, really… I don’t need it that bad
I have never bought a record of theirs from discogs, in fact I don’t buy from discogs. discogs really sucks ass in my opinion. you got these idiots cranking up prices of records as well as marking every shit copy in the world as NM. lame… I love it when the artists repress their own and I also have to say that as much as I’m bored with this Rush Hour thing they are helping to keep the market under control not to mention selling records as new for a reasonable price. If some jackoff wants to pay $500 for a KDJ record I can’t do anything about that except for try and sell the same jackoff some reocords for stupid money 😉
$15.00 for those Theo mash-ups… never, sorry man I got a kid to feed
So you’ve never paid more than about $10 for any record? Not even old ones? And surely if all monetary decisions were based on raising a child, you wouldn’t live in one of the most expensive cities on earth, right?
how much you will pay will always come back to how broke-ass you are & how much a record is personally worth to you.
As a record fiend, flippers are definitely an enemy, but, they’re also pretty easy to avoid. The jokers with lots of cash & no experience will pay the premium prices because they’re looking for obvious trophy pieces right away, where real diggers know that there is an endless supply of unknown treasures to unearth and that those prize pieces have a way of rewarding patience & good karma.
There are a lot of artists & labels milking the trendiness of vinyl right now, releasing limited edition & deluxe versions of everything. It’s fun ownning rare & valuable records. Everybody likes to brag. However, it’s not too hard to figure out where there’s actual value & where there’s a cereal box prize thrown in with otherwise bullshit material.
I feel everyone’s pain though. The worst things an artist or label can do are A. stupidly or maliciously misjudge the demand for a release & B. fuck up the availability/distribution. There isn’t much more depressing than when you know ahead of time about a record, only to see it premier in the jacked-up secondary market.
Some of these tribulations are what make the vinyl game fun.
My dears, those collecting vinyl are pretty close to luxury goods business 🙂
As digital formats are taking over the music sales, there have to be incentives to attract people to buy vinyl. Sure, there is a number of real fans who always prefer vinyl. But many others would rather pay €4.99 for a MP3 release than €7.99 for vinyl. If the vinyl is a stamped-limited-white-label-edition it could be even interesting for €9.99.
Recently I bought a Semantica 12-inch for €13.99 and it was very close to my limit. This kind of sums (and a bit above) I would only normally pay for deleted and hard-to-find issues.
What bothers me more is the hype generated around some “limited-editions” to be repressed later. I was among those being fooled by Convextion’s LP (Down Low Music) in 2006, supposed to be a very limited issue but having a few represses later. The record (I have two copies of it) is fine and I don’t blame the artist but afterwards I had sour feelings about this.
“there is an endless supply of unknown treasures to unearth and that those prize pieces have a way of rewarding patience & good karma.”
Which is another reason I’m not gonna pay stupid money for a new 12. I could dig out 3 equally good records for the same price. But oh no!! Theo didn’t stamp his name on it!!!!
I think it’s also amusing that Theo has changed his tune re:edits all of a sudden. I’m pretty sure – maybe in an interview with Tom on RA – that he talked about how his releasing edits like he did with the UE 12″s was wrong and a naive mistake. I call bullshit on Theo again.
well here in london I pay between 7.99 & 9.99 GBP. (mostly between 5 & 7 for used records) I think probably twice in my life I have paid more then $10.00 for a record in America. So yes, twice. My point is that no matter who is making the record I’m not paying more then a standard price for a brand new record. If people want to crank up prices on new records and kill the vinyl industry there is nothing I can do about that except refuse to pay $15.00 because someone decides to steal from lil louis, put a big price tag on it, and rip-off fan boys. I mean is it digital killing vinyl or vinyl purists…
As always the more expensive the city the higher the average wage, not to mention NHS, great schools, diversity, and inexpensive records if you look hard enough. I’d say raising a child here is rather nice.
“Which is another reason I’m not gonna pay stupid money for a new 12. I could dig out 3 equally good records for the same price. But oh no!! Theo didn’t stamp his name on it!!!!”
I could not agree more! I just got a 12″ of Osuland’s ‘Blackman” on Soul Jazz Records for 2 GBP yesterday. 😉 (granted its a VG but it plays good enough)
This website sucks – u’re a bunch of psychophantic brown nosing losers…
“psychophantic”…great word..if only it meant something…
Thanks for that great contribution. Who is brown nosing who exactly? I see quite a bit of disagreement going on here.
psychopathetic, maybe? not really a word either…
I am surely psychopathetic but I think most people are
Pretty sure he meant sycophantic. Of course this guy is welcome to blow me anytime he wishes.
I am willing to shell out extra cash for a special album release, but not for singles. Especially if you’re more inclined towards European releases, buying vinyl is just so damn expensive already, I’m sorry. Paying 8 to 12 Euros for a record, plus shipping, makes for many a broke American DJ. If US records start costing the same amount, people will have to start playing shorter sets.
Guys its time we face the music and realize that we now represent a luxury market composed almost entirely of collectors!
Technics finally stopped making 1210’s… The people who will be left in the vinyl game are all obsessive maniacs. However, there aren’t too many of us… As a result, you’re going to see lower volumes but much higher prices for new releases from established artists.
The one advantage I can see from this is that the records seem to be coming with very beautiful cover art and tend to be pressed on high quality vinyl. Overall, I’m happy to pay for something which feel special, collectable and sounds wonderful…
As our generation gets older and our incomes (hopefully) rise I can only see these editions appreciating, however, I am not sure if the next generation will adopt our habits? Eventually maybe the vinyl bubble will burst even for Theo Parrish Sketches type records…
good article, and it’s got a similar point to this one from the av club –
http://www.avclub.com/articles/jack-white-would-like-you-stop-whining-about-his-e,48457/
This comment rings true as well-
“I’ve worked with a number of small metal labels over the past few years, and whenever they have a piece of “limited” vinyl on the schedule, the answer to the question “Limited to how many?” is nearly always “As many as we can sell.”
I wonder how limited theo and co’s stuff actually is?
I sold a lot of my dubstep (burial, DMZ, skull disco, ect) a few years back at some funny prices cause there was demand. i was hardly speculating as I loved this stuff when it was fresh and new. thought it was silly cause these records were hardly classics, but it gave me the means to buy a bunch of rare stuff that I would have never been able to afford. still feel a little wrong about it, but didn’t keep me from doing it. I didn’t want the shit taking up my shelf space and sold it for less than everyone else was asking.
I’m totally with Kenny & Scott here.
These vinyl purists-antics like Theo Parrish’s will push people more and more towards digital. His prices are outrageous and he’s ripping off other artists himself. Do you think he ever paid one cent to all the cats he re-editted?. No way.
It’s a very double-standard kinda way of running a bussiness.
Most people never dare to say anything “negative”about Theo cause he’s considered some kind of house-god, but it’s about time he gets a reality-check.
If you think Theo is the only person illegally editing or sampling, you’re sorely mistaken. Far bigger artists (shit, look at those Mr. K bootleg edits that have been in print for 20+ years now! Ugly Edits haven’t sold 1% of the number of copies those have!) in house and other genres have done so with many more sales for a long long time.
I think the reality check might be needed by you since he is moving those limited units at higher prices with no problem at all!
I’d like to know how “limited” they are too as the Sketches 12s appeared on hardwax, sold out and then magically re-appeared again.
I can’t see the next generation adopting our habits. Sadly, I can just see many of them being put off by these sort of actions.
Collecting vinyl – and I believe running a vinyl label for many – is now a labour of love. But we shouldn’t be taken for a ride, as we pump enough of our spare cash (in my case most of it) into buying the stuff already.
It’s a harsh reality for label owners, but you ain’t gonna make much money off it, but it’s still no reason to jack up prices to exploite your fans.
The people who need to take a reality check are those who are allowing themselves to be taken for a ride by a hypocrite like Theo Parrish.
I love his music, I love his deejaying, but this is bullshit.
Hey guys let me tell you that i love this site, this article and the discussion. There are two points that i want to add. First: I heard that the sketches LP was some kind of a experiment, trying to check out the sound of this tracks on vinyl. He will be selling the best tracks on single represses, check RH http://rushhour.nl/store_detailed.php?item=56435 . So there is no real reason to buy the first Sketches pressing (in my opinion: the whole album is not that good), except you are a real collector freak. Second: Why did all release from the US become so damn expensive in Europe? Omar S and Jus-Ed are selling their stuff really cheap on there websites, but the european stores want now like 12 € for a single record. Is that really based only on the Euro/Dollar ratio? It is the reason why i stopped buying UQ/FXHE in the last months. Cheers from Germany, Marcel
Hey Marcel, glad you like the site.
Not sure about the prices of Us 12″s at the moment as I buy a lot in my local store now and the mark up usually means they are 11 or 12 (which i don’t mind paying, as its helping the local business, and postage usually ads up anyways)
You could maybe hold off and do a big order from fxhe or UG in a while. A mate bought up a load of stuff from fxhe not too long ago and got a good deal on postage from the states and it still came in at great value considering where it was coming from. Though I spose it means not getting em hot off the presses.
Some interesting back and forth going on here but there’s another side which hasn’t really been brought up. This is purely speculation from me I have to add but could it be at all possible that Theo (and I think Carl Craig before him but maybe in a slightly different vein)
are a little tired of these huge European “scenes” “borrowing” heavy from their “native” works? It’s fair to say that companies like Beatport etc are european inventions which are having negative effects (in an exploitative manner?) on their livelihoods and maybe they’re aware of the fanboy-esque elements that arise from these scenes (aside from the dedicated cats – ie most of us) and are merely capitalizing on the opportunity to take them for a ride.
I wouldn’t totally agree with this myself but it’s something I’ve thought about.
theo parrish is a retard
So the fans who buy vinyl end up being taken for a ride because of digital websites? Fuck that.
They wouldn’t want to get too tired of these European folk. If it wasn’t for us they wouldn’t be able to make a living off dj gigs.
Craig panders to the big european clubs with his C2 remixes as well.
Hi Guys, at first sorry for my broken English.
(1)Music is art and art is valuable (material and immaterial)! To work out art you need skill! Skill is hardly ever!
Of course it’s not only the creator of the art who’s setting the value: the artist can influence the material value in producing only
a few exemplaries which increases the price but not the longing for it. On the other side, if there’s no longing,
your ?skill? is there, but it failed and nobody will talk about you.
In my opinion it’s presumptuous to shout on artists who decide to make only a few copies to make their skill to something +more+ special.
Parrish/Moodymann: “We don’t make music for masses”.
(1)How you can satisfy all record collectors with $10-15 records or even a higher price? I’m sure Parrish and Moodymann don’t want it! And i respect their doing,
because they have the balls. It’s the normal way, that limited goods are sold out very fast and that there are some speculators holding back the goods.
It’s not easy for them to get those records and there’s always a risk to been out in one’s calculations, too.
You should respect the speculators as well. They buy a lot of music in the stores and secure the whole music industrie!
(2) It’s bold to release a limited edition, the artist cherishes it, and after he’s rerereleasing. Where’s the sense of a limited edition even?
This is fraud! If you do this with really expensive arts you’ll get in jail and they will penetrate all your holes. Tilt!
Respect each other (1)! Don’t cheat (2)!
@pipecock
So things become okay when other people do it as well?
The fact Theo is selling less of his re-edits than Mr K, makes not paying for samples-licensing and charging your customers double the amount (than normal people charge for a self-produced record) okay?
Very dangerous way of thinking if you ask me.
Especially when you present yourself as the living conscience of underground vinyl-culture like Theo Parrish does, you’d expect a much different attitude.
But in the end I am the customer and I decide what to buy and what not.
My money won’t be going into Mr Parrish’s pockets anylonger, it will go to those people who show a little bit more respect for there customers and the music-scene in general.
Big shout-out to: FXHE, Wild Oats, Morphine, Mathematics, Arne Weinberg, Eargasmic, Philpot, Mikrodisko, Meakusma, Clone etc. etc.
I can’t say much about the sampling issue. I love sample based music & the majority of sample based music is stolen. What I can and will still say is I would not pay anymore then the standard amount just because of someone’s name. (no matter how well they chop up someone else’s music and put their name on it)
I would ask label owners to do regular releases at standard prices and if they want to do something for collectors then do the first 20 records in colored vinyl (or something similar) and ask $100.00 a pop on discogs but please don’t shit on us regular dudes trying to afford life and still support a dyeing medium.
Repress or Bootleg: SUPPLY MUST ALWAYZ MEET DEMAND. let stop hating on the speculators & hate on the labels that don’t keep GOOD records in print. & lets hope some labels see the NOBILITY of keeping a backstock catalog. & lets look at the labels at ARE repressing/reissuing/keeping records in print or properly gauging market demand.
I think if you make music and are angry about who purchases it you should probably stop making music… To anyone out there who has ever bought a Ferrispark Record I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Even if you are a come-along, hipster, fanboy, douche-bag . 😉 (I’m making myself laugh over here)
Good point, Scott.
Also Dean, let’s not pretend here that Europeans are the only people to “borrow” in musical terms. These things go both ways.
I was at the party where the Theo record http://www.discogs.com/Theo-Parrish-Monster-Mashup-Dope-Jams-Halloween-2010/release/2522192 was sold. It came to $32.00 US for one copy. A few days later I saw it for $240.00 US on discogs. Now I don’t mind paying a little extra sometimes for a new record (and I was probably dumb for paying THAT much in the first place, I gotta eat too) but to mark it up that much seems outrageous. I appreciate vinyl-only releases but at some point it would seem we are no longer sharing the music. $ad.
“$15.00 for those Theo mash-ups… never, sorry man I got a kid to feed”
Agreed.
Also, after Theo’s harsh words some years back about the “edit” scene, his on foray into which he dismissed as “a rookie mistake” (I believe), a new Ugly Edit seems a tad hipocritical.
I, most often, love his music but find his attitude and hipocricy hard to swallow.
Ugly Edits is back on! 11th edition about to be released in Europe:
http://www.phonicarecords.com/product/view/67501
Dope Jams apparently had them this weekend but I really didn’t feel like making the effort to go out there for another expensive ass Theo edit… feel at this point he may just be cranking out edits and milking us dry of our hard earned $$$ ? That said, I haven’t heard it so I’ll reserve judgment on that until I can listen to it.
He’s been playing the Mr. Bumpman edit for a hot minute! You’ve heard it if you’ve seen him recently, it goes “I want some want some want some, I need some need some need some, gonna get some, gonna get some” etc. Fucking sick.
That’s about 20e. I’ve gotten ugly edits for cheaper on discogs. lol.
i figured the new ue was a boot and not from theo.
somehow the track choices are a bit obvious from hs recent sets right?
all said by scott and kenny… i still try to get the tunes on vinyl but 10 euros (sometimes 11) is the limit. the release politics of mr. parrish are not helping vinyl to survive and more & more people who really wanted to stick to djing with vinyl are pissed of by this shit.
and this limit still is too much in my opinion..
I like vinyl but for me primarily, from the perspective of a consumer, the music/experience takes precedence over the format. I have a small room and don’t have room for a record player or records (especially with synths in the way!) and I don’t DJ
i’ve bought quite a few records this year, as there have been a number of vinyl only releases, i have to get them digitized at a friends. I wouldn’t pay over the standard price for a record, either new or second hand but I wouldn’t fault those that do. I have a lot of records back at my parents, I wouldn’t sell any of them, I’d probably be more likely to give them away – as I do with my books once I have read them (i’m not really an object person i guess!)
Someone’s been bootlegging earlier Ugly Edits this year. And, a couple of represses have emerged from Kindred Spirits too. My Sun Ra remix was stolen a year ago and I passed on buying it for 6000yen, but have happily ordered it this week for 1300 when I found it on Disk Union. That’s about what I paid for it 6 years ago when it came out. I agree that Theo seems to be backtracking by going back to this edits thing, but Peace Pipe is a great tune and I’m sure his edit will be pretty damn good, which is more than I can say for a lot of the edits out there! And his LPs aren’t much good usually anyway, it’s all about the singles. Same goes for KDJ I reckon.
Get article. Great points from alot of different people.
First, supply must meet demand. The cost of pressing 500 vinyl, with a good mastering, is not cheap. High ticket price for the first 500 run, pre-order only…..ok, done. I understand that, for vinyl junkies in TODAY’S market. Labels want that loot, no overstock, no shelf waiting and artist gets something. After 500 run out…..well surprise…..label drops new batch 6-8 months later, no pre-order… lower quality or it got bootlegged. Artist loses.
Second, I have been in the game for awhile. Back then, imports….$9.99-$13.99. Jack Trax, FFRR was killing the game. Choice for me, in high school days, I will just wait the domestic to hit the streets. Save a penny here and there.
Reality for me…I am not paying that much money for a vinyl. Why? I am not touring as a full time DJ.
Reality for me….if I love the track or release, then I will pay because it is due to my love of good music and vinyl addiction. Example….Earth box sets on vinyl from Good Looking. I didnt wait, didnt care, didnt listen…grabbed it.
Bottomline…..Help the artist. Help the record store. Help the label. Vinyl is a thing a beauty. Cutting loss, making profit is basic business from the consumer standpoint and everyone has bills to pay.
Of course I agree with you guys, I did say I’m not sure I agree with it. It just seems like it could be “in character” for someone like Theo, Craig et al. Buckets of talent, buckets of media praise and an inkling to “take the piss”. I’m not trying to condone it by any means. We all like to believe this kind of stuff doesn’t “happen” in our scene….
That said I’ve seen Theo’s RBMA lecture about ten times and I have to say it’s truly inspirational stuff. Gives profound insight into his personality and relationship with music, another reason why I find this kind of shit so bizarre…
For me, It wasn’t so much the cost of the records. (though this is a part of it) it’s the silly shit they do to add insult to injury. For example: the release of not one…but 2 one sided records within weeks of each other. In the very least, press the same track on both sides. That shit is just wasteful.
furthermore, the conspiracy theorist in me believes that Theo and Co are the actual bootleggers of their own material. This way, they can re-release stuff, without losing even more face with the fans for re-issuing an “exclusive”…like they did with all those Sound Signature exclusive whites available at Movement ’05 (you know, the ones that weren’t supposed to come out, that did?).
Quate: “Theo and Co are the actual bootleggers of their own material”
This is what I have been thinking too. Very sad.
whoa. never thought about that. it would be a shame if it were indeed true.
Good one Tom, write a feature based on a discussion in another feature. That’s kinda like bootlegging your own writing :-p
Seriously, lots of valid points made. Some observations, all on an IMO tip of course:
– I don’t believe for a second that these ridiculous prices have an overall effect on the vinyl market. People who love vinyl buy vinyl, and if that one record is too expensive they’ll not buy it, and buy two or three other records for the same amount. So no, this is not killing our already limited market.
– Running a vinyl label is indeed a labour of love, but if your stuff is good enough, and you have the common sense to sell digitally as well, it can not only be a labour of love, but it can also get you your money back, with a decent profit. WPH does not make me rich, but it makes for some nice extra money, and it allows me to pay my artists some royalties too. Yes, I actually do that, now screw all you thieving labels :-p
– Tom’s point about rather having the excess money from expensive releases going to the original artist/label instead of greedy resellers is a hugely valid one, but this is a classic case of the good suffering from the bad. I’m not a greedy reseller, so I do not want to shell out the extra 20 euro because ‘otherwise it might end up in the wrong hands’. A record costs around 1,5 – 2,5 euro to make for a label, all depending on packing, which kind of vinyl and mechanicals or not, so charging 5 or 6 times that amount is just filling your pockets on the backs of the people who love your music, and to me that’s wrong, period.
– Limited means limited? Again, it depends on how straight up you are. Case in point: my limited coloured vinyl only series on WPH. First of all, these are done as a thank you to people buying vinyl, giving them something that is only out officially on vinyl, bar the digital bootleggers, but I can’t help that. In my case limited means limited: there is one pressing, numbering between 400 and 700 copies, depending on how good I think it will be received. After that pressing it’s finished, no repress, no nothing, no me keeping 300 copies aside and throwing them on the market when demand is high. THAT’S limited for me, sold at a normal price.
Conclusion: it’s all down to the attitude of labels, producers, buyers, resellers. Meaning there is no real truth, just different opinions.
RD
Now the funny thing is, when talking about Theo Parrish’s “Amerie / Lil Louis Mashup”, that in an interview at the Red Bull Music Academy he was actually pissed off people giving no credit and putting names on stolen beats and samples.
http://www.redbullmusicacademy.com/video-archive/lectures/theo_parrish__3_cheers_for_the_d
Just check this out at about 1:44:00.
Is this the same guy who said people should first buy records for at least 10 years before they should even think of starting dj-ing?
He probably meant that for everybody but himself either.
me personally i am not feeling the Limited Edition thing. its been trendy these last couple of years & i just think it needs to die: there are other ways to reward DJs, ppl whom consume vinyl & the “cognescenti” whom know what time it was when it dropped & copped it early; if anything, it engenders & reinforces illegal downloading, bootlegging, & an ARTIFICAL, hollow demand for records whether they’re actually good or NOT. let’s let Good Music dictate the demand & not these stupid little attention-whore marketing schemes. not talking about SS but seriously every single label in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA that plays these games. it almost makes me nostalgic for the majors.
Somebody mentioned that labels are to blame partly because they don’t repress. From a label’s point of view I can say that this is stretching it too far. When I do a first pressing I make an estimate of how good the record can do, and how many I think I can sell myself in the vinyl shop where I’m the buyer of new house & electronic music. If it sells out (which most of our releases do 😉 I always receive mails from people that still want the record. I’d be happy to do a repress for them, but…the minimum amount for represses at any pressing plant I know of is 300 copies… If I sold 600 copies of a record I make a bit of profit, half of which goes to the artist. If I then need 50 more copies and have 300 made to satisfy those 50 I shoot myself and my artist in the foot and lose what little I have gained.
It’s all very easy to make statements about underground, and respect to fans and the lot, but the reality is that even in the underground you have to deal with business aspects, unless you wanna throw away money or are a rich kid of course 🙂
RD
thanks RD for your really interesting slant on it. your approach and commitment to opening up the process is really refreshing. i cottoned on to WPH through some of the features on here and I’ve become a loyal customer in 2010. think the WPH colour series has been a nice addition- that Tyree Cooper jam has been one of my favourite records to play to people.
this has been a great discussion and pricing is becoming more and more of an issue.
i have to say i’ve found prices at my local record store creeping up this year with much US or Euro imports hitting £10 per 12″. As someone who’s a hobby dj/collector in that I earn no money from playing records this has meant I’ve had to get very selective about record buying. I’m frustrated with both the high prices on one offs like this edit (which, for the record, I’m not really interested in owning) and the fact that my local store is jacking up prices and left me thinking of taking my business to Juno/Boomkat/Clone. I don’t want to but I’m looking at paying a 15-20% premium for sticking by my guys (and occasionally missing out on some stuff). I got an annual statement from my bank last month and I found that I spent twice as much annually in my local record store than I did in any other retailer (this includes supermarket!) despite the fact that I’ve radically cut down my spending this year (my wife had a baby in January!) and I don’t see that much to reward that loyalty apart from the occasional rounding down of a couple of quid on a 60 quid purchase. I appreciate everyone’s struggling and I’m not looking for a handout but man, even in pubs you get a christmas drink!
it all depends on the personal factors that exist for me at the time when I’m browsing: what’s my budget, how much do I want the record, what other records do I want purchase or could I buy as well?
I can’t afford to buy everything that I fancy, so I’ve passed up on a lot of Theo, KDJ and other slightly over the standard rate shit. I don’t regret that tbh. I’m not a specialist in Detroit house or rare releases and I’m not a speculator. I just like my music in the vinyl format if possible (for reasons already discussed and debated a million times).
my take on the ethics of edits & reissues is the same as mentioned a few times above. it’s all about supply and demand. I’d like to think that any edits should at the very least be credited and the original artists should get a large cut, but this just isn’t realistic in today’s world of immediate access to music. and statement of releases being limited won’t effect whether I want a record or not, so I can’t really empathise with folks who feel stung if a limited release is reissued.
I agree on the single sided thing tho, it’s ridiculous to put something on the flip, wasteful and greedy imo
^instert ‘not’ between ‘ridiculous’ and ‘to’ ;0
beatport was founded by john acquaviva and richie hawtin and is owned/operated by beatport llc based in denver, colorado.
CAN NOBODY GET tHEO ON THE LINE TO ADDRESS THESE ALLEGATIONS AND SLANDER?
all i will say about this is i have bought none of the theo releases this year due almost exclusively to the price. for me to buy a $16 single sided record it has to blow my mind. these releases don’t. plus, it seems like there’s a new limited-single-sided-white-label release from theo every couple of weeks. what makes each record special?
uq and fxhe? i buy every single new release as well as much of the backcatalog. why? because the records are (extremely) reasonably priced, and i order direct from alex or ed. i listen to those records all the time and love them, much more than some marked-up-hyped-up limited thing. alex and ed get lots of respect from me, and thus create a very loyal fan. can’t say i’m that way with theo recently.
why do you guys think a press of 500 Vinyls is a limited press?
standard of pressings today is 500/1000 units.you will hardly find a record these days with more than 1000 copies.
think about it.
His music mightn’t be to everyone’s taste but this interview with Cristian Vogel raises some really interesting points about creating material for limited release as well as tailoring releases for “collectors”.
http://articles.veryverymuch.com/post/1556384171/cristian-vogel-part-1-of-2
hey bro, you can repress lower than 300. I run a few labels myself, we initially press up 500 then do lower presses if we’re not supa’ confident of pressing another 300 (you will get a better price for 300+ per vinyl unit). Maybe email me for more info…?
“Conclusion: it’s all down to the attitude of labels, producers, buyers, resellers. Meaning there is no real truth, just different opinions.”
True…
“By charging more than the standard amount of money, the number of speculators is going to be severely limited, especially if there is no guarantee that the price will go up from its already high going rate.”
Apologies if this was touched upon, but would the number of speculators really be cut down, or would it not just scale with the price incline?
Unless all speculators have unlimited money to spend, it will definitely limit it on that alone. Additionally, the return on investment will need to be appropriate to the money dished out which would increase the resale value to a point where the potential customer base will shrink as well. As you can see from the posts on here, people are less likely to get in at the jumpoff price much less once it gets further inflated!
I agree, it would be nice to get Theo’s side. I have nothing against Theo or anyone else doing what they do, I just refuse to pay too much for it. 😉
Having read all the various comments and what not this is how I approached this matter. While I was out at the festival this year, and had the opportunity to pay the going rate of $30 a 12″ I passed. As I didn’t hear anything on those records that justified the expense to me. I did however cop the recently released CD and have listened to it many times over, as I believe the work in question is worth the $14.99 I paid. In the same order I picked up the traffic 12″ single for $10.99, which I was fine with. I understand the frustrations that many of have already explained, since as someone that’s involved in the record business (full disclosure, part of Technoir Audio), I know exactly how much TP pays for his pressing. But what I think what’s getting lost in all of this, is that at the end of the day, its a business. If someone is can get someone to pay $30 for a 12″ while we can only $8.99, all the power to them. I think in the dance music arena, many think that there’s some “honor among thieves” and clearly that was never the case. It’s a hustle, some of us hustle harder than most and are now being compensated accordingly. Is it fair!?!?! Does it matter? “Do or do not, there is no try” (Yoda)
Really interesting link to the Jack White article, thanks for that. Great work on the Curl EP as well.
Regardless of the price… this is totally hypocritical of hot headed Theo… and Amerie ‘One Thing’? About 6 years late on that one homie. Would people be paying mad shit for this if he stayed in Kansas? I know white people that are more Detroit than Theo. I see KDJ around town and he’s chilling and shit. I don’t get whats up with Theo. Seems lame.
You know what, fuck what I just said. This price ain’t shit. If you press 500 12″ records and sell them for 15 dollars… that equals about $7,500. It’s going to cost at least $2000 dollars to get that shit pressed.. and it’s not as easy in Detroit to get shit done. You can’t DJ here for money like the kids can in Europe. Kenny plays for free, I play for free. There’s no money to be given out. So if you do the math, selling 500 records at 15 dollars will give you about the same profit as working a shitty part time job for 3 months.
Do you think Theo or anyone else put in 3 months of work to get to this level?
The answer is yes. So, people need to wake up.
Everyone just wants musicians, DJs, and artists to bust their unpaid balls their whole lives so you can just sit back and watch an entertaining cartoon.
*edit: selling 500 records at 15 dollars will give you about the same profit as working a shitty FULL TIME job for 3 months.
[…] were very limited and also extremely expensive – something that was insightfully discussed over on ISM. ‘Sketches’ is a solid album, with highlights being, ‘Kites On Pluto’, […]
wow. lotta hate out there. lotta love too. two sides. first royalties are in a process of being paid to the artists music used on the ugly edits hence the 2 cd. since the vinyl is no longer available, some of the bands and their management thought this would be a good solution as I would, since i could offer most or all of them to djs that dont want to search, or buy those bootlegs(its funny some think im booting them myself as if i have that much time, or if thats a disposition in my character. cmon yall are that cynical?
the sketches songs will reappear again , more finished and not all of them check ss041
thumpasaurus is next via runningback records.
but besides those ive lost interest in reapproaching the sketches stuff because well they were sketches tests unfinished drawings. I was experimentingwith that when life started to kick ass in areas that effected everything else including my releases.
besides that,
I simply do not control what dists and stores mark up, when I saw what sketches was going for i was pissed, but those who know me know how serious things have been since then and fools marking up my decidedly overpriced records(10$ ea) was the least of my problems.Im just deciding what to do now. sketches was created for the demf of that year for sale on site only….that was the plan until life had plans of its own, so w If i rerelease sketches vinyl again im a bastard. if I dont release it again im a bastard. regardless im a contradiction, like everyone on this planet …and dont get it twisted…the underground music industry is a dirty game, no doubt. but bootlegg my own shit? fuck you. beyond that, my records are for playing out. they are not comic books. if you dont like them thats fine.If you do thats great. getting a website redone so I can serve anyone interested and maybe make good on some of these mistakes n misjudgements. To all those who have supported me THANK YOU. I will try my best not to disappoint. it has been a terribly difficult last two years, and it has not been easy. I have made somebad callss, true. These are shifting sands. Its very hard to keep your ideals when theres soo much being done to undo what we care about. How do you make records and live off of it? Do other things in addition…oh and by the way- you can call me out on the sketches. horrible set of events that swirled around that so r revisting them with fuller production(original Plan) or moving on altogether.
you can call me out on the edits but your about a decade late and already paying for that nothing said here trumps what Im oblidged to do
but questioning whether Ive paid dues is something I take to heart, but not here in cyberspace. do your homework., and if you still got something to say hit me up at 313 544 STFU
maaaaaaad late!
thanks everybody for giving a shit enough to speak on their contentions, call me names, and doubt my character, offer their neutrality, explain the industry. without critical exchange how else anybody get better at this?
even if my response is a year late
thank yall
now im gonna STFU
Then how come you’re reading it? And what’s even more humorous is that you got this far down the page!
It was cool that you (finally ha) replied to it as many would just choose in your position to ignore critics or just come and tell us to shut up. This whole shop mark up thing is starting to piss me off, when I see similar records at wildly different prices sometimes. I can understand a euro or two maybe here n there, but sometimes its just silly. It’s depressing that in such a small, niche market of peeps who have stuck with vinyl they can get taken for a ride. Or, in my case, miss out on some music cause I won’t pay it. I don’t think its unreasonable for folk who don’t have has much knowledge on the ins and outs of the industry to aim the blame at the artist or label owner, and well sometimes they gotta be called out too.
I find this pretty hilarious imo!! If you can’t afford it you just miss out!!!
If you have the paper then cop it!!! I have paid more then 500 pounds for a Test press that eventually got bootlegged!! I Didn’t care cause I have the O.G. thats worth a grip!! Sometimes you have to Charge it to the game!!