Two of techno’s biggest icons are currently featured in a couple high profile magazines, and the differences between them highlight a divide that occured in techno music that seems to be more relevent now than ever before.
First up is the cover story on Wire magazine out of the UK about Detroit heroes Underground Resistance. An unedited transcript of the interview with Mad Mike Banks can be found here, and while I feel that a better job could have been done in choosing the person to interview Mad Mike, overall it turns out alright mostly because Mad Mike just dictates where the conversation goes. It’s pretty awesome to see the guys who have been maintaining things in Detroit for 15+ years get some cover action!
Next is the interview with Richie Hawtin in this month’s Mixmag (their “Future Issue”…) that you can download here (I can’t remember where I got this file from, big ups to wherever it was!).
From these you get two very different points of view. For Richie, the future is handheld deejaying gadgets, teleconference club gigs, and other such nonsense. Mad Mike’s idea of the future is far far different, for him it is about the young kids from Detroit that he helps find their way through the music they play. Richie’s idea of “put(ting) a little bit back” is to pay for carbon offsets. Mad Mike’s is to be a baseball coach in inner city Detroit, to try to be an inspiration for these kids to do good things in life. Richie gets involved in these music technology related companies who then end up making a huge profit for him when all his sycophantic fans go out and buy whatever new toy he is using so they can be like him. When the interviewer tells Mad Mike that UR is one of the “most powerful brands in music”, he replies “The records were designed to inspire. There are certain conditions and situations that obviously we don’t like. It’s in our creed. The sound can change things. I think people can feel that in the music. There are no instructions given and I think that when you say this is one of the strongest brands I appreciate it but truthfully it’s the people that bought our crazy looking shirts. I think they support the concept of what it is and it inspires their imagination. I was really blessed to travel late. In fact I travelled to Europe so late that the people from Europe had already come to Detroit way before I got to travel, and I was blessed with people were coming saying. I was in drug rehab and a guy in there was playing ‘Hi-Tech Jazz’ and it really raised my spirits and changed my life. A guy came over, and I remember him real specific, because he had a drug problem, and he was a recovering drug addict and he said that that particular track was his shit, and it really gave him strength.”
This is the essence of it all, right here. For some, techno is all about capitalistic hedonism gone wild: consumption of new gadgets, music, style, fashion, etc etc. For others, techno is soul music whose power is great enough to change lives in a positive fashion. This is the main reason UR is such an inspiration for me and for many other people, they talk the talk and then walk the walk. One of my favorite memories of Detroit was an afterparty in 2004 that took place Monday of DEMF weekend. It was a benefit show for a spot in downtown Detroit that was a place for kids to hang out and learn about music and other positive activities to keep them from the poverty, drug dealing, and violence that can be so prevalent in the poor of that city. The perfomers were Galaxy 2 Galaxy live, and it was amazing. It took place in the small building that housed the kids’ center, and it was packed with a couple hundred people who all believed in one thing: the power of that music.
That is what techno is all about, forget about Ableton Live, Serato, Waves plug-ins or whatever other gadgets these “artists” try to pimp to dance music fans. Techno is about people, the artists’ souls being espressed in the music, and that music touching the dancers’ souls and lifting them up above the materialistic corny shit that is out there to distract people from real life. It helps to inspire and transcend, not to line some corny guy’s pockets so he can get goofy haircuts.
Don’t be misled!
While I agree for the most part, if Hawtin wants to make money, thats his perogative, its not written in the techno-rule book that making money is against the law. And hawtin is always singled out as some capitalist scumbag, but is it ok for Del May to be sponsered by Nike?? For the artists like UR who do give back more to their community, there are hundreds of artists who don’t, and its a bit tiring seeing hawtin singled out continuously. He’s shit, has been for a while now, lets just ignore him…
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Even though I find some of the UR rhetoric a bit cringey at times, I totally admire Mad Mike for his community-minded spirit. Its the same spirit that Bambaataa’s Zulu Nation was founded on and its beyond reproach in my opinion.
Having said that, I dont hate Hawtin for having a capitalist approach – any accusations of that nature could just as easily be aimed at Jeff Mills with his Axis fucking beach towels or whatever. I just think Hawtin’s music is shit and I dont like his hair or his face.
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Well said Tom. Compairing what both of these are saying in interviews really does show the diference in what exactly each of them is trying to express. as you’ve said conductor all that matters is the music but this comparison gives an insight into what is going into or rather, what is attempted to be expressed in this music and shows the difference between the two.
Richies music is bullshit and so is what he has to say in interviews, UR music is amazing and inspirational and this shines through in both music output and interviews (however weak the interviewer may be). And for me this makes a difference, obviously if you dont like music you dont like music but at least you can have respect for it because of what the artist is about. With UR its passion, inspiration the endless struggle in the face of oppression. with Richie (and yes, most of these other fools) its basically just a load of ego centred bullshit with aims no more than the fnancial/egotistic bettering of themselves and that I cannot respect.
Mills may sell beach towels and other strange things but his MUSIC doesnt exist for capitalist gain so that would put him on the same side as UR imo
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Hawtin gets stick because he’s a poster boy for the hyped up MNML scene, that seems more like a fashion movement than a musical one. Why does, say, David Beckham get so much stick? It’s not just because he’s a twat, but because he’s always out there, on TV, on magazines, in the bloody mainstream news even. So in a smaller way within the techno world some people see Hawtin a bit like that, he’s always out there, on some magazine or whatever selling something, talking nonsense. There may be worse artists or worse DJs, but Hawtin’s one who is always up on a pedestal just asking to get knocked.
tbh, I couldn’t get through that Hawtin article, mainly due to the sycophantic journalism…
“techno’s reigning innovator”
“his Minus record label is unwaveringly dedicated to discovering new ways of creating dance music”
“dance music’s authority on the future”
at this point I began to feel ill and stopped reading. Alright, Hawtin himself didn’t write that stuff, but it’s the type of meaningless hyperbolic drivel that regularly accompanies articles with Hawtin or his friends.
Kenny, it would be better to ignore, but it’s hard to avoid when you’re into techno and he’s one of the most talked about people in techno.
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@Gmos. You’re right,he is hard to avoid, but I didn’t expect to see him crop up here as well as everywhere else for no reason other than to give out about him again.
Deano, what are you on about re:Mills? If Mills had no interest in capital gain with his music he would give it away for free. Don’t try and justify his actions just cause you like his music and not Hawtins.
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re: mills, i cant criticise people for making merchandise for their label (i mean, what else would deejays have to wear if their favorite labels didnt make t-shirts??!?!?!?), but that is not the cynical kind of thing that hawtin is guilty of. for him, making a couple bucks selling a t-shirt is nothing compared to say owning part of Beatport and thus beggining to own the one of the major current methods of distribution for dance music. and of course that came shortly after he became one of the primary hype men for final scratch. the man did what he could to help kill off the vinyl market so that he could then move into the digital distribution scheme. that shit is jive, and is in no way even comparable to jeff mills selling an axis beach towel, sandals, football, or whatever. if anything i find those silly things to be highly entertaining, it shows jeff doesnt take himself nearly as seriously as richie does.
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“that shit is jive”??!!!
fucking hell pipecock, you get worse by the minute….you’ll be wearing spats next, you hep cat!!! ;o)
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Kenny what i mean is that the music mills creates is not dollar driven. the reason it exists is because of theories or ideas he is trying to explore and share. if you have ever heard him talking about the theories or ideas he was trying to express through different tracks you’ll understand that this is honest expression and i feel that with hawtin its the exact opposite. Mills might sell beach towels and make money, then put that money into releasing music to try to open poeples minds to ideas he believes to be interesting but hawtin simply sells music (bad music) and promotes incorporations and gadgets in order to make money for himself…identify the capitalist
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Oh for god sake stop accusing Hawtin for the collapse of the modern world. You paint him as some machiavelli type trying to control everything. Get over it. He didn’t invent the MP3.
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he is just a cynical money driven individual. nothing wrong with that if youre okay with a very mainstream approach to life.
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Dean, do you know what drives Hawtin to make his music, just because he doesn’t spout a load of pseudo bollocks like Mills do you think it is purely commercial and mills is not in any way? If you notice, Hawtin does not churn out music these days, with his fame where it is, he could fire out tracks and people would lap them up. Yet he doesn’t. He barely puts out anything. So I don’t think you can accuse Hawtins drive for making music as anymore commercailly driven as Mills is. This hating on Hawtin just because he has smart business acumen is so fucking tiring. If he had in some way got invovled with business that reinvigorated vinyl he would not be such a baddy is that it people? Fucking hell, let people listen and play the music the way they want to. We can stick to vinyl (because for all this ive never bought an mp3)and others can do whatever, don’t blame it all on Hawtin. Whinge about something else would yas.
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deejaying gigs make more money than selling tunes.
and he would not have gotten involved with someone
“reinvigorating” vinyl because that is not gonna pay like it is to be in at the top from the beginning of the “new” thing, thats how he works. he gets paid. good for him.
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Mills is just as much a businessman as Hawtin and good luck to him. Theres some double standards going on here, and Kennys right….Mills pseudo-intellectualism does seem to help people delude themselves into thinking its a much more worthy approach. If Hawtin had opened a clothing boutique then everyone would call him a cynical moneygrabber – but presumably its ok for Mills to do it because….er…..well, you give me the reason!!!
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and this topic shows that this is the difference between him and genuine creators (in this case- mills & UR)
Richie gets paid, richie is more a business man than a creator/artist. mike banks dont get paid like richie but IS about his music and his beliefs
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conductor do you think mills makes up his theories/ideas in order to give his music an air of psuedo-intellectualism?? thats completely absurd. Jeff mills is genuine and richie hawtin simply is not, maybe once he was…
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Whatever about Mills being genuine, one could be real cynical and say that he still doesn’t have to talk about it all the time and sell his product in this manner, and such project the image that Conductor says helps then sell his product. and seeing as others do a fine line in cynicism regards Hawtin this isn’t the most fantastical notion ever
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I think Mills is genuine about his beliefs and theories but I think he’s kidding himself to a certain extent. His theories on minimalism are fairly sound and he’s clearly an intelligent guy but sometimes the theories he attaches to his music dont really seem to stand up to close scrutiny. They seem successful because they SOUND good but I dont think the listener would pick up on the theory in question if it hadnt been suggested to them first. I dont want to sound as though I’m Mills-bashing cos I love his music and have huge respect for him, but I feel that Mills can get away with his merchandising and boutique whereas if Hawtin did the same thing he would be slated. If Derrick May had set up Beatport, I dont think anyone would slag him off for it. I certainly wouldnt; and if anyone did then we would all accuse them of trying to stop the black man making money!!!
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Tom, dope article chap.
BTW, my blog is gone so u might wanna remove the link, thanks for the support, ill drop you a email soon.
Spec.
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You do make a fair point in amongst all the hating there Tom. I have maximum respect to MM for his down to earth-ness but that doesn’t really mean Hawtin epitomises everything that is wrong with modern techno music. One of them parties all the time, the other doesn’t (by the sound of it). That is neither good nor bad.
As for vinyl. I love it and buy most of my music on the format but you cannot get away from the fact its popularity is dwindling. There are many reasons for this, some bullshit (as you put it) and other very valid indeed. For the market that techno, particularly, is aimed at digital distribution makes some sense as it fits better with the life styles of the audience. Most people can’t be bothered to digitise their new vinyl for listening on their ipods (I can, however).
Anyway, we could have a long and boring conversation about this but while I entertain the thought that the vinyl purist angle has validity, I think it would be more level headed for you to do the same with digital.
As for Hawtin vs. UR. Both are, mostly, beyond their prime. It’s a long while since I got excited about a UR record (though the digital only, for the moment, Raiders of the Lost Arp G2G remix is pretty hot). Hawtin lost it years ago. He does his thing, that’s up to him. I don’t think he’s harming anyone so I pretty much ignore him.
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After reading this article and the following comments I have to say that I am quite shocked at the sheer ignorance and narrow-mindedness of the comments at large.
What concerns me the most is the point blank refusal of many of you to accept the constant effect that technology has on the scene. It is always in a state of change. You can look back to the halcyon days of the early Detroit sounds, but you must realise that techno is a global sound now, and to stay credible it must adapt to technology. That is what it is built on.
Whether you like it or not, Techno and dance music in general are a product of technology. As technology advances so it has a direct influence on the way it is produced, consumed, distributed and manipulated. To be unwilling to accept this and look forward to how the evolution of technology has affected the scene and the benefits that brings is self-defeating. Techno has always relied on new trends and new sounds, without which the scene would have died a long time ago. You learn to adapt or you get left behind.
To say that someone who is at the forefront of the scene and supporting new technology is selling out is just pure folly. Hawtin’s DE9: Closer to the Edit will always remain to me a classic work. Released in 2001, it was far ahead of the current trends. Jump forward to 2007 and it would still sound fresh. Do not take that away from him by denouncing it as a purely capitalist venture.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I have little respect for the seemingly ubiquitous “minimal” trend in dance music at the moment but it is what people want to hear. Tastes within dance music will always be controlled by the fans. The DJs don’t dictate the culture anymore. Looking at the recent releases of Josh Wink, Oxia, Adam Beyer and most of the more established artists, you see that they have all jumped on the minimal bandwagon. Why? Because that is what people want to hear!
It seems to me that you who proclaim your love for techno have forgotten your roots. Wake up! The techno scene began with a futurist philosophy, stop trying to hang onto the past. Either adapt, or get left behind.
Halcyon and on and on…
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Techno was originally made with hardware that was pretty much out of date.
I don’t consider techno to be the pursuit of technology, the more the pursuit of soul using machines. As such the techno approach doesn’t _have_ to follow technology as such.
That said I don’t believe, that because of that history, that technology should be shunned if appropriate ie. can be used to make music that has soul and perform that music in a way that conveys feeling.
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Can you people not realise the connection between the advancement of technology and the increase in bullshit music coming out nowadays???
Computers is what you mean by “the advancement in technology” and tbh computers cannot live up to the quality of sound, warmth and most importantly the experience and atmosphere of music made by hardware machinery. its a sad day when somebody trying to make techno music knows nothing about programming drum machines and analogue synthesizers.
As mike said in the interview “There’s been time when I’ve made music like ‘Hi- Tech Jazz’. Man, when I made that track I can’t remember anything, it was a two week blur. The spirit was moving through me, and when I got through, it was ‘Hi-Tech Jazz’. Many, many times as a musician, if you’re really in tune, like you’re playing in church… As a keyboard player, or guitar player, or bass player, I’m decent at what I do, but there’s times when people in church get into it, and the feeling comes, and the spirit comes, and you can play way beyond your ability” That shit doesnt happen with computers and is one of the reasons music sounds dull and lifeless as well as having crappy sounds when made on software only.
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Ill make it apparent that im only referring to techno music
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TBH I don’t buy the luddite angle.
It depends on whether the spirit flows through you, no matter what equipment you use. If someone can fully express themselves using a computer/drum machine/mpc then so be it. If someone ain’t comfy with the interface that is the problem not the actual underlying hardware. The MPC is a computer, with a n interface people like. That is all. If you’re relying on some soul being introduced by the machine then perhaps that’s a reflection on the producer.
People are perfectly capable of producing dull lifeless music with analogue kit too. Don’t forget that.
I am not saying that there isn’t rubbish out there but there always has been, even before computers.
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“Can you people not realise the connection between the advancement of technology and the increase in bullshit music coming out nowadays???”
That sounds like something that would have been uttered by a luddite when drum machines etc came along. As noted how much rubbish has being made on analogue equipment? Shit loads. No different now maybe, but – and this is a fan of the analogue sound – stop the wanking over drum machines etc. plenty of good music used on the ‘puter. I get the idea that some people instantly dismiss music when its not made on old lumps of hardware, which is about as un-”techno” an attitude as is possible.
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“That shit doesnt happen with computers and is one of the reasons music sounds dull and lifeless as well as having crappy sounds when made on software only.”
Yawn
… I agree completely with Kenny and Fivetones above. Loads of shit music made on hardware as well as software and loads of great music made on hardware as well as software. Even Mad Mike himself in a previous intervew (which I don’t have to hand) says all that matters is the music that is made not how you make it – he is totally in favour of people using software/hardware or whatever floats their boat.
“I get the idea that some people instantly dismiss music when its not made on old lumps of hardware, which is about as un-”techno” an attitude as is possible.” – amen
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Yeah, was chatting to Dj Skurge (UR) in dublin recently, and he pretty much backed up Banks, said he got into it through reason, and thinks having software available is a great help to up and coming kids getting into music.
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Bit disappointed to see some of the Hawtin bashing further upthread. Does anyone remember techno in the late 1990’s? The relentless banging variety that pumelled you into submission? Awful stuff. Okay, so Hawtin was part of that scene but at least he had the vision or whatever you want to call it to push something new. His BBC ‘afterparty’ essential mix in 2002 was a breath of fresh air. Admittedly this spawned the dreaded mnl but I’d trade that any day over a 4 hour Ben Sims / DJ Shufflemaster style techno mix.
And like Woody said, ‘Closer to the Edit’ is a classic.
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people throw around the words “classic” and “great” way to much in my opinion. Im guilty of it to sometimes. I do kinda hate myself for reading every single one of these comments. ugh. Being a young man in my early twentys it might sound funny to the old headz but the 1st time i ever heard jeff mills was on DEX EFX & 909. ha it was ritchie hawtin how got me into the deeper sound. go figure!?
anthony
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Hawtin did put out some serious records back in the day that I would swear under. However, his recent (hardly any) stuff is fuckin terrible. The same goes for his DJ sets.
I have no problem with him (or anybody else) being involved in Beatport, talking on behalf of technology companies, selling t-shirts or somehow making money out of this industry. All I care about is the music. So fuck you Richie Hawtin.
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“So fuck you Richie Hawtin.”
- I’ll take that back.
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All im sayin is that can people not see a connection between the AMOUNT of shitty mnml nonsense coming out nowadays and the availability of software??
People are gonna get down with whatever format suits them and thats the way it is, thats cool BUT all im saying is that maybe my disappiontment in all of this mass produced, soulless, same sounding, supposedly mnml nonsense is because of the amount of uninspired idiots making music for their ego and their pockets using ONLY computers
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Fuck Richie and UR…….
Villalobos is the new king
Pick up the new cuts from Fabric 36 Ricardo Villalobos – Sei Es Drum
To quote a user:
“Ricardo is unbelievable.
I find listening to most of his albums extremely uncomfortable. They always seem to unleash some sort of deeply locked away anxiety. The tracks are good, but I find them hard to listen to. A1 is a specifically good example of this, I find this track disgusting.
His double 12″ on Candenza was almost impossible to listen to. Truuuuly discomforting. Am I the only person who feels this way?
His work needs to be reviewed by art critics rather than music critics. There are so many little fucking secrets; they’re paintings.”
Lets not kid ourselves, Richie have always been the lonely kid with no friends wanting to be ubercool.
Just look at his history, he have always used people and music to his own benefit. When the mnml bubble burst, Richie will move on. Richie have always been in it for the money. Just think how much money he made on his raves in the early 90`s in Detroit, up to FS and Beatport.
Take a look at the interviews RA did with Jay Haze on Minus and Richie:
http://www.residentadvisor.net/feature_view.asp?ID=803
http://www.residentadvisor.net/feature_view.asp?ID=804
Mad Mike is a true artist, same with Mills. That is where the future lies in the people and community. Always have and always will. From early New York to dubstep in London. Not some future with mnml-hipster scarf-wearing-college-gradute-ubercool-berliner-crowd who can afford all the gadgets Richie see in his future.
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Theres way more music out there than mnml, thats just picking at one genre, which is just blinkering oneself to suit an argument.
Amusingly enough I was chatting to a producer mate of mine about Omar-S and he said one thing he didn’t like was he thought everything sounded like shitty reason presets. ha!
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“Amusingly enough I was chatting to a producer mate of mine about Omar-S and he said one thing he didn’t like was he thought everything sounded like shitty reason presets. ha!”
goes to show how much your mate knows since omar-s uses all different sorts of hardware.
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Not really at all. this is one of the most knowledgable guys i know, and is about to blow up big time. He was surprised when I told him, he didn’t think he was trying very hard. ha!. and I think he is an example of how using that dreaded software is just a match for any amounts of hardware.
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Jesus Kenny your mate must be a bit dim lol
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Omar S’ records are…..im not even gonna get into it
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“Jesus Kenny your mate must be a bit dim lol”
you are so very very wrong, but then I didn’t expect any of yous to ever hear a bad word uttered about your beloved Omar (who i too like). its like pissing against the wind.
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there’s no way in hell that omar s’ stuff sounds like it was made in reason! you can hear the damn analogue-ness (!) of it… part of what makes it so good.
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Hahaha, you guys are so easy to wind up…
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I know your probably just winding us up but if there is somebody who think omar s’ music sounds like it comes from reason then they are an idiot.
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see above
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thought as much…
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couple things…
1) stop feeding the trolls.
2) tom and i have gone round and round and round in the vinyl vs. computer and/or hardware vs. software debate.
it’s funny how a post about the underlying motivations for being involved with music came around to a discussion of analog vs. digital.
i don’t have a problem so much with the way Hawtin mixes. i don’t really care if you’ve got a calculator, a piece of chewing gum, a rubber band and a comb. make me FEEL something, motherfucker.
the problem i have with Hawtin as a DJ is that, even though his “DE9″ may have been a technological breakthrough, it was completely devoid of any sort of emotional content. it was all “hospital white”. he snagged 4/8/16/32 beat loops out of 100’s of songs, and reassembled them, and bravo for him for doing it, but it all came out very clinical and devoid of anything actually interesting.
(fwiw, i still love “spastik”. that’s my shit.)
the divide between the UR modus operandi and Hawtin’s is personified in their approach to “music-as-business”, but it goes beyond the application of their craft. i think tom’s point is that the motivation behind the application of that craft is just as important as the end product.
now, here’s where tom and i begin to disagree…
i primarily use a computer to dj. not because i use pirate music (i won’t say i don’t download illegally, but i do buy everything i put on any mix that goes out into the world at large). i love the convenience factors that digital gives me to focus on the arrangement and melodic elements of the music i’m playing.
if you care that i can push one button and match the bpm, you’re missing the point.
tom has been present to see me play on a handful of occasions, and i think he’ll attest to the fact that i don’t “phone it in”. and even if our taste in music selection diverges, he’s been gracious enough to never clown me for what i do and how i do it.
my point is, it’s not so much that “technologystolemyvinyl”. it’s that it’s made it that much easier for a lot of sub-par “content” to exist. you still have to have a foundation of feeling, emotion and soul behind any artistic endeavor, or risk relegating your “art” to the audio equivalent of those huge painting sales that happen at the local Holiday Inn.
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http://www.residentadvisor.net/feature-read.aspx?id=852
an interesting interview right there, check out his ideas in regard to the computer in production. and read the comments in which someone posted a promo sheet that came with the mix, explaining why he wanted it to be done with a live feel. this is the kind of use for a computer that i think enhances what is being made instead of making it more cold. still not sure how this turned into this discussion though!
[mark] said basically the most important point of the original post:
“the motivation behind the application of that craft is just as important as the end product.”
and that will always remain true. if anything, i think this relates to the computer vs analogue debate in that using a computer makes it so easy to make a track that the “motivation” doesnt even need to be very high, or directed in any way. it makes it easy to churn out ultraprecise crap that has no soul. but someone who produces the right way will have great effects no matter what they use, though i dont think it is a coincidence that so many of those people choose to use hardware at least a decent portion of the time.
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1) The Hawtin-hating is so f!#@D ridiculous. Leave the man alone. His music since DE9 is very much “hospital white” and its always been about achieving that aeshetic. All of M_Nus is about “hospital white” sounds…Just because you don’t like it and it happens to be popular doesn’t decrease its musical value. I think its ability to basically wash away the aggressive, brain pumelling/hard variety of techno that ruled the late 90s and get people (and girls
dancing again is a testament to its value.
2) Mills has a new designer boutique which sells cold, minimal japanese dresses for frail women at $1000+ in Chicago. Don’t talk to me about “spotting the capitalist”. No matter how much philosophy you wrap your marketing in you’re still pushing a product (and there’s nothing wrong with that!!!)
3) Vinyl is great. Its warm sounding and beautiful and incredibly collectible. Its also elitist. It took me until 23 to be able to afford turntables. I was downloading techno Mp3s at 16…If the music is really about moving the masses and spreading the sound and the feeling don’t hate on digital distribution. Just enjoy both mediums if you can
4) Hardware orthodoxy is also elitist. To get that wonderful old-school Detroit analog sound will likely cost you thousands of dollars in gear. You could also say that Ableton/Reason are pricey…then again its alot harder for a poor kid in say, Romania to download a cracked version of Ableton than steal a proper Moog! Oh and btw there are some brilliant digital releases that have come of late that have been praised all-around here…Burial’s new album anyone??? You really thought that was soulless?!?!
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^^^^My wording mistake on point 4! Its alot easier for a kid to get a cracked version of Ableton than to steal a synth/drum-machine/whatever. I guess that could lead to more “crap” music but it also leads to more music in general, amongst which gems that would have never been made otherwise can be uncovered.
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“1) The Hawtin-hating is so f!#@D ridiculous. Leave the man alone. His music since DE9 is very much “hospital white” and its always been about achieving that aeshetic. ”
that wasnt what he has always been about, though. when he was just into making techno music, he was much much better. its funny, his over-reliance on technology has essentially killed what was once great about his music. i have all his albums up until “consumed”, after that it all went downhill!
“I think its ability to basically wash away the aggressive, brain pumelling/hard variety of techno that ruled the late 90s and get people (and girls
dancing again is a testament to its value.”
eh, detroit techno and house never went away, and they never had those problems. just because hard techno got so bad that it was ridiculous doesnt excuse mnml for being so bland.
“2) Mills has a new designer boutique which sells cold, minimal japanese dresses for frail women at $1000+ in Chicago. Don’t talk to me about “spotting the capitalist”. No matter how much philosophy you wrap your marketing in you’re still pushing a product (and there’s nothing wrong with that!!!)”
somehow i dont think that all the mills lovers are out there buying those outfits! i mean, you can be interested and involved in things other than music, i dont think there is anything wrong with that. it is the way richie uses his position in music to pimp the other stuff to the people who are his fans that is the problem. i dont see mills in interviews talking about how the future of techno is minimal japanese dresses.
“It took me until 23 to be able to afford turntables.”
uh, i mean i was broke as shit but i managed to go in with a friend of mine when we were 17 to get some tables. it was hard work buying a setup and keeping up with records with people who had real jobs and shit when we were just out of high school, but we did it!
“If the music is really about moving the masses and spreading the sound and the feeling don’t hate on digital distribution. Just enjoy both mediums if you can
”
the problems with the death of the vinyl culture are detailed in other posts on this blog. this is what is lost more than anything else.
“Hardware orthodoxy is also elitist. To get that wonderful old-school Detroit analog sound will likely cost you thousands of dollars in gear.”
who said you need those specific pieces? my man chris schubert (there’s a link to his music in another post on here) produces using a korg electribe and some crappy yamaha synth, neither of which is expensive or hard to find.
“You could also say that Ableton/Reason are pricey…then again its alot harder for a poor kid in say, Romania to download a cracked version of Ableton than steal a proper Moog!”
again, who needs a “proper Moog”? just use what you can find. the combination of random gear mixed together is almost always going to sound more interesting than something coming straight out of the same set of D-A converters in a soundcard.
“Oh and btw there are some brilliant digital releases that have come of late that have been praised all-around here…Burial’s new album anyone??? You really thought that was soulless?!?!”
i said that there are all computer tracks that are good, soundhack is another great computer based producer. i cant speak for anyone else in the thread, but im all about the final result. and as i said before, it cant just be coincidence that most of the records i like the final result of are not made on computers!
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Great points Tom. Thanks. Will have to look into more affordable hardware.
I can see this post engendered some very aggressive discussions but its nice to see that despite some hating and aggression I’ve definitely learnt something. Keep up the great blog.
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I personally think that this Wire article on the UR camp was about 10 / 15 years too late. I mean, I think the community stuff that Mad Mike is doing is great but seriously……has the UR label put out anything really groundbreaking in the last 8 years? The stuff coming out of Germany since the milleniun has been a hell of a lot more interesting (even if it has reached a creative cul de sac now). Time to pull out my 1994 Jockey Slut mag with the Mad Mike cover.
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HAHAHAHAHAHA. who gives a shit if anything they do is “groundbreaking”?!?!?! i wish any of those mnml artists were capable of doing that most groundbreaking act that UR has on lock: writing good tunes!
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UR have barely released any tunes in the last 6-7yrs worthy of what came before. And I LOVE Ur. They used to be both groundbreaking and great at writing tunes. Now its few and far between.
Have to laugh at some of your wording pipey “he has an over-reliance on technology”. hahaha. Its called techno for a reason ya div.:lol:
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i think that is craziness. UR for the past 7 years was at least as good as the previous 7 years but most likely better IMO.
technology is not the end all of techno music. if it was, computers programming music by themselves would be the ultimate techno music. and obviously that is not true.
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” Don’t talk to me about “spotting the capitalist”. No matter how much philosophy you wrap your marketing in you’re still pushing a product (and there’s nothing wrong with that!!!)”
Really?? So to you the creation process, the reprasentation of your struggles/your peoples struggles, your ideas, philosophy, heart, mind, soul and emotion is all irrelevant and basically all it is is “pushing a product” ??
Sounds like capitalist talk to me…..
“Hardware orthodoxy is also elitist. To get that wonderful old-school Detroit analog sound will likely cost you thousands of dollars in gear. You could also say that Ableton/Reason are pricey…then again its alot harder for a poor kid in say, Romania to download a cracked version of Ableton than steal a proper Moog!”
There are many interesting sounding pieces of hardware that can be bought for cheap thanks to the ole internet. If you did a bit of research you would find stuff like – roland jx8p, yamaha dx100, alesis sr16, alesis mmt8, yamaha tg33 and many more.Thats the shit (bar 909/juno maybe/303 maybe) that the warm detroit sound you mentioned was made on anyway. Derrick may certainly didnt have no 10,000 moog modular. these types of budget hardware are all really cheap and full of CHARACTER. What this brings to your studio (and your sound) is CHARACTER. a unique collection of sounds/possibilities existing only in your own personal set up. this leads to interesting sounding music (eg. omar s, chris schubert (as toms mentioned), kyle hall and many more) and what you get is unique. Richie Hawtin once had stuff like this and he got inside it and freaked the shit out. now he uses a computer.
But thats not even the main point, if someone has got something to express then thats gonna come through and thats all that matters…but as was said above “using a computer makes it so easy to make a track that the “motivation” doesnt even need to be very high, or directed in any way. it makes it easy to churn out ultraprecise crap that has no soul.”
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“i think that is craziness. UR for the past 7 years was at least as good as the previous 7 years but most likely better IMO.”
Don’t be silly.
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” Don’t talk to me about “spotting the capitalist”. No matter how much philosophy you wrap your marketing in you’re still pushing a product (and there’s nothing wrong with that!!!)”
Really?? So to you the creation process, the reprasentation of your struggles/your peoples struggles, your ideas, philosophy, heart, mind, soul and emotion is all irrelevant and basically all it is is “pushing a product” ??
Sounds like capitalist talk to me…..
It is a product. To be pretentious it could be called the product of the mind, soul etc, but the end product is eh, well i just said it. Unless you give your music away for free, you are looking to get some capital gain from it, of course you are, if you aren’t you are fool and lying to yourself.
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i love old UR records, but for the most part the old ones that really stood the test of time are the ones which are of similar sound to their newer jams, the “hi tech funk” sound or whatever you wanna call it. “timeline”, “inspiration”, and “hi tech jazz (live version)” are my three favorite UR records and theyre all recent. to diss the newer UR material is ridiculous, it is some old whiny techno nerd shit. fuck that attitude.
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“It is a product. To be pretentious it could be called the product of the mind, soul etc, but the end product is eh, well i just said it. Unless you give your music away for free, you are looking to get some capital gain from it, of course you are, if you aren’t you are fool and lying to yourself.”
did you read what mad mike said about it being a struggle to keep the Submerge building? that building is used to employ many people. in fact in the interview he says he could have made more money racing cars in the street. if you think mad mike does this for “capital gain” you must be illiterate or stupid.
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“it is some old whiny techno nerd shit.”
haha,thats priceless coming from you.
Mad Mike makes money off UR to support and employ people to keep everything going, he channels what capital gain he makes into that. obviously he loves making music. I said you will look to make money off music and for Mike it would be for these reasons. Is that a hard concept to grasp? No.
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This is getting a bit ridiculous! I think this dicussion has reminded me how much of a nebulous concept “capitalism” really is. Its also reminded me how some people really can’t stand the fact that an artist can make mad $$$ AND be interesting and relevant…I don’t think its one or the other necessarily. There’s several artists that I enjoy who put tons of effort into what they do but also want to make a great living. I don’t think they’re any less “important” or “good” than those who choose to not pursue personal wealth…Ultimately its the MUSIC that matters. Now I know some people will come back saying that the best music is made by those who don’t think of profit when making it and that music which aims to sell is all crap but I just don’t feel that’s true…I think Villalobos is probably doing pretty well right now and probably thinks about the commercial success of his releases before putting stuff out and guess what? That new Sei Drum EP he just dropped..its pretty f!@# sick…
I love UR and other artists with more “philanthropic” pursuits but for FFS, KNOWING that they’re aiming to help the community doesn’t make their music automatically better by fiat!
Hmmm…I never thought Libertariansim and Techno could really meet in an online forum…nice
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“I said you will look to make money off music and for Mike it would be for these reasons.”
no, that is not it. he uses his popularity to help build better lives for the people around him and to give more people the opportunity to do the same.
“Its also reminded me how some people really can’t stand the fact that an artist can make mad $$$ AND be interesting and relevant…I don’t think its one or the other necessarily.”
neither do i! richie’s music has suffered immensely, he is only relevent to people who don’t know shit or who want to be on the mnml cash cow bandwagon. its entirely possible to make money making good music, jeff mills would be a perfect example of that. richie is not. neither is villalobos.
what they do isnt what makes their music good. the fact that they do not have purely profit as their intentions when making it helps though!
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“he uses his popularity to help build better lives for the people around him and to give more people the opportunity to do the same.”
Yes, and part of that is running submerge, getting new artists from detroit out there. `If he gave away what he makes for free, he wouldn’t be able to do this, thats all im saying.
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“what they do isnt what makes their music good. the fact that they do not have purely profit as their intentions when making it helps though!”
Precisely
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Hawtin has always been about ego, Carbon Offset…..yeah sure, does he offset the Carbon from forcing the promoter to fly 20 groupies to each of his gigs, does he take care with his Itnary and makes sure it leaves the least impact on the world…..no, he IS a capitalist scumbag that has seen a marketing oportunity after watching Al Gore’s film, he never gave a damn before but all of a sudden he “relates” to the issue so he can look cool (orbital did eco friendly over 10 years ago before it was advantageous to your income), it is pure unfelt rhetoric to make even more money and put nothing back. I’m not even going to go into his musical output, he was always mostly lame, copying Phuture, ripping off all the early plus 8 artist, the guy is a tit who is lost in his own ego.
UR put back and continue to do so, maybe not all their music hits everyone’s personal spot all the time but the integrity is untouchable.
In Summary Hawtin is a waste of space, period……thankfully more people see this.
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i think mnml as a concept or it’s origins isn’t bad but the kind that minus do is both awful and cynical & responsible for the demise of the genre .have you noticed how all minus releases sound the same . i’m convinced there’s some weird creature churning them out and they flip a coin at the headquarters and decide which name will go on the record this time . a big pile of poo me thinks !
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to all you people complaining about people taking it out on hawtin there are two aspects you might want to consider. this hasn’t been mentioned and relates to reception. first, i don’t think hawtin ever received any bad criticism from the mainstream electronic music press/media who just hype whatever he does or says. you can’t really blame that on him, of course, because most of these publications don’t take a critical approach to anything (i probably don’t need to go into why that is so). social involvement, backgrounds, economic interest and other issues are never ever considered in these publications, they are however an important factor of the business and the way in which artists/labelowners and others engage in these fields clearly has an influence on their integrity. second, at least here in europe, hawtin has ever since the mid-nineties been received as a serious artist turning out works of conceptual art (not DANCE music), invited to play at galleries, museums, taken out to dinner by pretentious curators and what not, sponsored by major banks, car manufacturers, etc. with the way he styled himself, he gained access to a whole different sphere of society, far removed from what you would term “underground”. and at one point, he apparently started to believe in his grandiosity. on the other hand, the people that invented techno in the first place never received any such response over here and their music was and is surely not regarded as high art, or receiving any attention outside of the club music circuit. why? because techno is not about technology (or to use another sales keyword: innovation) but ultimately about community.
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I absolutely agree in the fact that what Mad Mike and the UR crew (and some others in the D aswell) are doing and saying is a million times more inspiring than Hawtin and the likes capitalist, market saavy approach. However, i think they both need to exist. Its a balance, like most things. The underground and the mainstream. I dont think they even need to be compared.
Its great that someone mentioned Zulu Nation.. I am a long time member and that sort of thinking is very much a part of Zulu thinking.
I am not going to diss Richie Hawtin, in fact there are far worse bandits out there …everyone has a different way and Richie is obviously a go-getter and very successful at what he does and such. Although my thinking is much more aligned with what Mike Banks is saying, i dont have to get mad at others who dont think like that.. however i understand the frustration.. he sure gets alot more attention in the media with his gadget pushing and such, when UR, who have something much more important and worthwhile to say (and other lesser known artists aswell) so often are overlooked… but thats underground. remember, the magazines that are printing all that stuff are completely aligned with a capitalist way of thinking and doing business that is in a way in conflict with the socially conscious, politically active words of UR and the like.
Rennie Foster
Subject:Detroit / Teknotika / Soiree
Universal Zulu Nation, Tokyo
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the whole “mnml/microhouse” movement is bunk. takes away from what is the real shit. it’s all the fuckin kids listen to out here in SF and its old as fuck. real shit doesnt get old. i cant listen to blippity bleep shit for more than 2 tracks before i need something with real *musical* quality. UR 4 LIFE!
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wow richie is full of shit. on the other hand so are most of the comments here, whining on internet about computers having no soul (the irony!) doesn’t bring forth any change whatsoever.
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Kamo, I think you are wrong in some ways about the media who hype everyword hawtin says, you CAN blame him, why? because he chooses to expose himself to them, why does he chose to expose himself…..because without press exposure his type wither and die, look at the difference of magazines, Wire for UR and Mixmag for Hawtin, ironic but in a way totally right UR are in Wire and suits their message of consolidation and community, Hawtin in Mixmag suits “the me generation” where the only community mixmag relate to is hedonism on ibiza, Hawtin comes across as a nob…but he set himself up for that and probably doesn’t even realise as he is so wrapped up within his own personna.
Maybe artists are scared to speak out about him due to his massive involvement with Beatport, and so they are scared of losing vital exposure, thats why they refer to him as a go getter, but whilst that is true in a neo conservative way he has consistently never given anything back. He hasn’t even innovated as everything he has been involved with has been done before, he is just a timely band wagon jumper.
Mad Mike will always have my support and respect, Hawtin will always have my laughter, but I’m sure neither really worry about what I am writing, Mike because he just does and Hawtin because he is just about himself!
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@Fledge: damn fucking str8!
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yo fledge…
i refered to richie hawtin as a go-getter because he is. there is no question that he makes things happen on a large scale and always has… BUT.. it doesnt mean i support what he is about at all. its possible to respect people and at the same time fight against what they satnd for… respect your enemies and all that. i think all that gear brand pushing and safe trendy techno for the masses is wack, and i would never “watch what i say’ to protect my support on beatport (hahaha.. you wouldnt say that if you knew me !) i read richies article and call bullshit too.. but i dont really need to compare it to mikes interview ..richie is what he is and does what he does.. its for THOSE people and i dont hate on them.. i just do another thing. and the thing i do is much more aligned with what mike is talking about.
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Hawtin is supporting the community:)
English Version
MINUS is looking for a new intern for merchandising, press and promotion.
Skills:
Excellent verbal and written skills in English and German (must be German or English native speaker and fluent in the other language)
Strong computer skills, experience with MAC and office programs
HTML knowledge
Independent and structured working
Exceptional organisational skills, ability to multitask
Enthusiastic, proactive, resilient and with good team spirit
Flexible time schedule
Drivers licence appreciated but not required
Job description:
- daily office work, (general organisation, run errands etc)
Merchandise: inventory, mail-out of online orders (webshop), etc.
Press & Promotion: mail-outs, creation of newsletters, evaluation and archiving of press clippings, online postings and radio playlists, planning and coordination of promotion appointments, etc.
Please send your cv and application via mail or email.
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