A few weeks ago – around the time of my last post mentioning all the remixers that Planet E had lined up for their 20th Anniversary releases – myself and Tom got in a fairly heated discussion over this element of dance music. It ended up with us agreeing to disagree on the subject so I decided we’d throw it out here for you lot to talk about it. First up is Tom’s 2 cents…
So, it occurred to me, while thinking about Planet E’s lackluster list
of remixers who get the chance to take on a formidable collection of
some of the best dance tunes ever, that I generally don’t like remixes
of instrumental dance tunes. In fact, I am having a truly difficult
time coming up with any exceptions. Even combinations that seem
interesting on paper usually don’t beat out the original, Robert
Hood’s take on Juju & Jordash’s “Deep Blue Meanies” being a prime
example. Vocal tracks definitely lend themselves to being remixed in a
way that instrumentals don’t. You can take the vocal and slap it over
something totally different sounding with quality results as long as
the track is in key. With instrumentals, it usually seems to me as if
the remixing artist might sample one of the sounds or distinctive
parts of the tune and then writes another tune around that. 99.9% of
the time, it isn’t anywhere near as good as the original!The point being that remix compilations like this are pretty much
worthless to me. Even if the “name” remixers were more to my taste,
they still probably wouldn’t be able to come near the brilliance of
what made the original what it was. More annoyingly, I’m going to have
to hear jokers playing these bad remixes instead of the brilliant
originals, especially at DEMF. The whole thing is just an exercise in
painfully bad decisions, played out in a way to cash in on people who
want to pay for that “name” remix.
Now, in my opinion I think there are plenty of instrumental remixes out there that have added something else and that have served a pretty good purpose. But first and foremost I don’t really see the point in differentiating between vocal and instrumental. Taking a key element of an instrumental – be it a melody line etc – and building a new track around it is no different to taking a vocal line and doing the same. A remix of either can bring a song in a totally different direction. Look at Galaxy 2 Galaxy’s remix of Raiders Of The Lost Arp’s “Beyond The Dark”, turning the spaced out electro original into a sublime bit of Hi-tech Soul – The remix of which isn’t on youtube, but here is the original.
Richie Hawtin’s remix of System 7′s “Alphawave” turns the original into a ludicrous (in a good way) acid techno monster – do many even remember the original? A few people have even posted up the remix as the “original” on youtube.
In a direct compare and contrast is E.R.P’s remix of Hardfloor’s “The Life We Choose”. The original ain’t a bad bit of acid with a nice electro beat, but the remix is on another level altogether.
I’m not gonna deny that plenty of remixes don’t turn out to be as exiting a prospect as they seem on paper but it’s just as much the case with vocal track remixes as instrumentals. They can supply a nice alternative where the original wouldn’t work, without them having to be a radical re-working, or even an improvement as such, but it still makes them viable.
Instead of me sitting here listing off good/bad examples of remixes, we’d like to hear the readers opinions on this, along with some examples of where remixing is good and where it goes all wrong…
NONSENSE~
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Kenny reply on March 7th, 2011 8:34 pm:
haha, both of us?
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I think Mayday mix of Jaguar was pretty hot, but there was a strong melodic line to play with. The Underworld remix of Orbital’s Lush3 is pretty good (if you like Underworld which I do
). The Speedy J remix of Adam Beyer’s Ignition Key is a fucking monster.
All of the remixes of FLR’s Easy Filters series are awesome. A bunch of the remixes of Flare’s Re-grip are good. (The Yoshihiro Sawasaki remix of Curved Sunburst comes to mind) The Dave Angel mix of Ken Ishii’s “Overlap” is awesome too.
Can you post a link to the last post? There doesn’t seem to be a list of posts sorted by author.
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Kenny reply on March 7th, 2011 8:43 pm:
Yeah, that Speedy J remix is incredible!
here is the post about the Planet E remixes
http://infinitestatemachine.com/2011/02/02/gigs-records-mixes-a-lil-trax-bizness-and-some-hip-hop/
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levon vincent mix is on another level
http://www.discogs.com/DJ-Jus-Ed-Im-Coming/release/2482422
can’t even remember what the original is like, pretty poor from what I can remember
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pipecock reply on March 7th, 2011 8:42 pm:
I like the original way better, out of key vox and all. Also this is a vocal jam!
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Those recent Trax remixes (re-edits) didn’t need to happen. That was clearly for the money.
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Further examples:
Daft Punk’s remix of Scott Grooves – Mothership Reconnection
The Juan Atkins Magic Mix of Strings of Life surpasses the original
Soultek’s remix of Gys – Lon is a thing of beauty, best remix of any Gys track
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pipecock reply on March 7th, 2011 8:54 pm:
You are smoking the good stuff on Strings of Life.
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Scott Ferguson reply on March 10th, 2011 5:25 pm:
agreed, the original is the sh!t!
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gmos reply on March 14th, 2011 4:22 am:
I LOVE juan’s mix of Strings Of Life, it’s a totally different vibe to the og anyway, there’s def room for both, besides i prefer Strings of Strings of Life to those 2
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I’d also like to weigh in again with the Luke Slater remix of Loop 2 by Kenny Larkin
http://www.discogs.com/Kenny-Larkin-Loop-2/master/27709
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Dare i say Falling Up…
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pipecock reply on March 7th, 2011 9:13 pm:
Great example of proving my point
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Herbaliser remix of Atomic Moog 2000
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Weak examples of vocal tracks: every example of Underworld’s Push Upstairs. That Francois K remix in the See Mi Yah remixes. The entirety of Israel Vibration’s “In Dub”.
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pipecock reply on March 8th, 2011 1:01 am:
There are countless horrible remixes of vocal tracks, most of that See Mi Yah set falls into that category. I’m just saying I can think of tons of GREAT remixes of vocal tracks, including some that are far better than the original.
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i love quiet village remixes. anything mark ernestus touches is usually going to work out well too.
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pipecock reply on March 8th, 2011 1:00 am:
How many remixes has Ernestus done? I can think of two, one of which is one of the very few instrumental remixes I can think of that I play recently (Tortoise), the other being a dub mix of a vocal jam (Tony Allen).
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A yes this stupid argument once again, it’s silly because Tom is dead wrong, his justification at the time he called me out of the blue while I was at work and now is “he can’t think of any” ………What?!?!?! Not to go all Steven Wright on you, but just because you didn’t see the tree fall in the forest doesn’t mean it didn’t make a sound.
Also the questioning of this remix project and image you used for this post does not prove your point, nor provide support for the notion of no instrumental remixes going forward. I mean if you follow foxnews, and want to take slivers of information to justify your far reaching and arbitrary point, godspeed old man!
A remix is great and in certain times more ideal because it realizes a moment or two in the original, that were either not highlighted enough or were lost in the presentation of the original track.
The examples I sighted that supported my point of view and quieted this subject for a few weeks were as follows.
In my opinion these remixes blow the original out of the water each and every time.
Losoul – Open Door (theo parrish remix)
La funk Mob – Ravers Suck our sound (Carl Craig remix)
Fred Gianelli – 1st Definition (DBX Detroit Remix & DBX Remix)
La Funk Mob – Motor Bass Get Phunked Up (Ritchie Hawtin Electrophunk Remix)
Now I could go on for days for vocal remixes, but I was just working through the parameters of the initial query.
Part of the problem is the terminology that’s being used nowadays, as now these instrumental remixes are often being referred to as “edits” nowadays, but these edits are just glorified remixes and we can spend all day splitting hairs on the merits of each, if in fact there truly is a difference.
No there isn’t, but “Ugly Remixes” doesn’t quite have the same panache as “Ugly Edits” now does it?
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pipecock reply on March 8th, 2011 12:57 am:
Edits are done from two track masters, remixes are done from multitracks of a song. They really aren’t anything alike in any way. This is not new splitting hairs either, this is going back 30 years or more now. I think edits with added production have to either be called remixes or someone else’s work that is based on a sample.
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kenny reply on March 8th, 2011 1:55 am:
“Edits are done from two track masters, remixes are done from multitracks of a song”
Broad generalisation that is not true. I only this week recieved a 10 inch with a remix that I know was created out of a wav of the original, not a multi-track. I doubt it’s a once off, this happening.
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Phil W reply on March 9th, 2011 4:55 am:
Or you could sit down and do a remix completely from scratch with no samples at all, so again, the rule isn’t as cut & dry.
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pipecock reply on March 9th, 2011 9:19 am:
The rules are quite cut and dry in fact. If you’re not using any original parts, you’re doing a cover version.
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Cybotron – Clear (Jose Animal Diaz Remix)
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Remixes are an essential part of electronic music and when they’re done well, they can easily surpass the original. I like the idea that someone can listen to the original track and then take a melody or a hook and rearrange it in a totally different context.
Two good examples off the top of my head are the Aux88 mixes one this one:
http://www.discogs.com/Nukubus-Europa-EP/release/1077690
and the Heinrich Müeller mix here.
http://www.discogs.com/Hacker-Fadinaway-Remix/release/10801
Both records give the original a completely new lease of life.
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the cynicism about remixing in this post is almost as bad as the cynicism SOME people have when they chose to do a remix. i expect more from you people.
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jtechnoir reply on March 9th, 2011 9:55 am:
You can’t get to cynicism, without ISM:)
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strange. that plastikman remix of system 7 popped into my head this morning! used to get played quite a bit at a techno night that used to run in cork in the mid/late 90′s. the name escapes me for some reason…
i’m with pipecock on falling up, the carl craig remix, while better known and more “playable” is nowhere near as good as the original. but i don’t think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater. i’d be happy to ignore the slew of sales-oriented mediocrity and keep my dub 7″ versions…
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something I picked up just for the remix -http://www.discogs.com/Vainqueur-Lyot/release/15711
still a similar structure to the whole track but for me, so much better than the original
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MVO remix of Watamu Beach. Who gives a shit about the original?
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I think that we can all list 20-30 remixes which we believe are amazing, but this being the basis of your argument can be a bit disingenuous. Couple of points here to note imo
- I think we can all accept that certain tracks should be considered untouchable. Rob Hood is one of my absolute heroes but as Tom pointed out, his remix of Blue Meanies pales in comparison to the original. I NEVER thought I’d say that about a Rob Hood production. These types of arrangements where either big tracks are mixed by little cats (planet E in question), little tracks are mixed by big cats, or big tracks mixed by big cats (Hood mix of Meanies) or any combination thereof can be separated into two categories for me (distinguishable by motivating factors). Basically either it was a genuine attempt to pick a remixer which the artist respects and feels would add something (imo case in point being the Hood remix) OR the remixes are financially motivated/an attempt to cash in on something which is the in trend (The planet E thing??)…
Regardless of that rant, Joe up above is right ^^^ I’ve never even listened to the other side of the MVO remix of Watamu Beach
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The reality is that most remixes simply don’t need to be comissioned. I think a vocal or a melodic hook helps to reinforce the decision of comissioning a remix, but it’s necessary either. It makes more sense to cross pollinate remixes between genres but there isn’t enough of it going on these days.
In the end, some tracks are just bad and don’t need remixes. Some tracks are classics and don’t deserve to be fucked with. And then there is that middle ground where great ideas aren’t full executed, and that’s where a necessary remix comes in. Regardless, these remixes generally help to keep the industry afloat so they won’t go away any time soon.
Disclaimer:
In 2004, I remixed Teste’s “The Wipe.” Himadri asked me to do it personally, and since it was one of my favorite tracks ever and I was young, there was no way I was going to turn it down. 7 years later, I still think I made a decent enough effort, but I can honestly say it was a classic that didn’t really need to be touched. It was perfect in every way. If given the option to remix a classic track again today, I would think twice.
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bernardo reply on March 8th, 2011 2:05 pm:
I think the purpose of the original post may have been to point out that remix compilations of classic tracks are pretty much always a bad idea.
With regards to instrumental vs. vocal remixes… Honestly I think the above discussion has shown that there are amazing remixes in both worlds! Personally I find some of the most exciting remixes to be the ones that recontexualize music for an entire different setting… I wish there were more cool crossover remixes from indy, soul, rock and pop. This used to be more common in the past I think…
Example- the DFA remix of Le Tigre’s “Deceptacon”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnUDjMtiGCA
The Caribou remix packs last year were kind of cool… would love to see more remixing along those lines.
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jtechnoir reply on March 9th, 2011 9:59 am:
Agreed that has been lost in our initial discussion, now I can’t speak for Tom, but it probably has more to do with what Planet E once was and what it has turned to in recent years. Whether that has been good or bad is up to each individual consumer and has already been discussed in great length in various other posts on this site. Are we cynical, at times, but we are if nothing else passionate about this dance music we all love. We just want the best everyone has to offer, no different than the expectations of your favorite sports team.
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is there such a thing as “sueno latino” without D.May’s hand on it? i wouldn’t know or care. Hope im not still smoking rocks.
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Tom reply on March 8th, 2011 1:44 pm:
There certainly isn’t without Manuel Gottsching’s hand on it either.
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I think there’s a misconception floating around about Losoul – Open Door (theo parrish remix) because of flipped labels. There’s no way the slamming filter house track that is by far the better track on that 12″ had anything to do with Theo Parrish. TP’s remix is the boring plodder on the other side, just like the rest of his productions. The original is by far superior here.
I guess I am trolling a bit but I dislike Theo Parrish that much.
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jtechnoir reply on March 9th, 2011 9:54 am:
Big Losoul fan but I have to disagree with you there. As I’ve barely looked at the original in the same light since then. But hate away, that’s really what we do here:)
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here’s a question… how do we know that “originals” are indeed “original”? could it be possible that an “original” is really a remix? if this is the case, this makes this entire argument foolish.
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http://www.discogs.com/Shake-Shakir-At-The-Bonnie-Brook/release/2320814
Photonz Lisbon Funk Remix of Shake’s At The Bonnie Brook is far better than the original. And I say that as a huge Shake fan
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pipecock reply on March 9th, 2011 3:56 pm:
IMO Shake should never be remixed. His tunes have so much personality, it is what I like about them in the first place.
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pipecock reply on March 9th, 2011 3:57 pm:
That said, the Sound Hack rmx was pretty dope. Haven’t been into any others tho.
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I’m not getting why something should always have to live up to the original? If the point of a remix to always be better the original than I can understand Tom’s argument. But honestly, who arbitrates these things? Art is not about this one being better than that IMO, it’s about the differences.
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pipecock reply on March 10th, 2011 2:25 pm:
My point is why do we need inferior versions of things we already have? I’m a big of fan of playing the original if it’s hot. If it’s not hot, make that shit hot. That’s the whole concept to me.
I want difference, which is why I buy different records by different artists. And usually not many instrumental remixes
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Kenny reply on March 10th, 2011 8:26 pm:
You can have 2 versions of a track (og and remix) where one may not be better than the other but but can be equal in quality but also serve a different purpose. I like the Raiders og, but I wouldn’t drop it at the same time as the G2G version in a set. purpose = served.
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pipecock reply on March 10th, 2011 10:07 pm:
I would rather just play another G2G track.
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Kenny reply on March 11th, 2011 3:35 am:
Why?
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More fuel to the fire: two Dave Angel remixes which far surpass the originals are his versions of Joey Beltram’s Curb and Ken Ishii’s Extra.
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jtechnoir reply on March 11th, 2011 9:52 am:
That Extra remix stills gets it done till this day. That was a fantastic effort from Mr. Angel!
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Also, how could i forget the Slater remix of this. Classic.
http://www.discogs.com/JB%C2%B3-Forklift-The-Remixes/master/61209
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jtechnoir reply on March 11th, 2011 12:22 pm:
Ah yes. I’ve lost my mind in plenty of warehouses when I noticed this tune was coming in the mix. Devastating!
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I’d like to ask how well you think the material that comes from some of you that are so passionate about slating Planet E stands up to what you are railing against?
I just had a good listen to the Pittsburgh Track Authority material, and for fuck’s sake you are sampling Odyssey ‘Shake Your Body’ and slapping some chords over the top… some of the other tracks have nice elements, but come on – you really need to come with the goods on another level to be quite SO full of venom.
Fair point?
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pipecock reply on March 11th, 2011 12:26 pm:
Carl Craig has used far more obvious samples including melodic ones. Of course those were on his tracks that were actually GOOD. So yeah, feel free to suck on my balls.
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pipecock reply on March 11th, 2011 2:56 pm:
also, i like how you bounce in and try to be undercover in your shit talking. i have this thing, it’s called Google. i know you’re Paul Woolford.
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mkb reply on March 11th, 2011 3:30 pm:
You really need to come up with the venom on another level to be quite so full of meta-venom.
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frank reply on March 11th, 2011 10:23 pm:
ok let me ask you, mr. woolford, was “erotic discourse” *your* best shot at “coming with the goods on another level”? because despite the fact that it sold tons of copies, to my ears it sounded trendy and stale right out of the box. just sayin’.
anyway, obviously we all have more than one favorite planet e record but Carl clearly lost the plot when he started worrying more about how he was going to pay for his next benz and fancy linen suits than he does about techno.
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Oh my, is someone here actually using the “you can’t talk about someone elses music until your music is just as good” defense?
As someone who doesn’t make music, is it ok for me to think Planet E is not that good these days?
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I dont make music and Planet e has lost its buy on sight status to say the least.
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The Cajmere remix of Juan Maclean far and away exceeds the original.
That’s all. Interesting debate thus far. Carry on!
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remixes can go one of two ways in my opinion. either as well thought out new take on the record that explores another side of the song and takes it in a new, refreshing direction. the other way is a money grubbing way to sell more copies. occasionally the two overlap.
@Kenny: i think the Raiders “Beyond The Dark” is a great example of where the former happened. both remixes take it to new destinations.
More recently I thought the Patrice Scott remix of Pawel’s “Crillon” was way better than the original. Marcellus Pittman’s remix of Hungry Ghost’s “Illuminations” was an amazing re-interpretation. Whereas the Octave One remixes weren’t much to write home about, especially Sandwell District remix of “I Believe.” People need to know when to leave well enough alone, especially when it comes to classics. Those remixes of “Sharevari” awhile ago were all done by solid artists, but there really isn’t any reason to touch a stone cold classic like that.
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My favorite remixes, imho real improvements in comparison to the original tracks:
Massive Attack – “Protection” (Brian Eno Remix)
Shaun Escoffery – “Space Rider” (DJ Spinna remix)
Kem – “Heaven” (Marlon D Remix)
Eleanor Academia – “Adventure” (Shep Pettibone Extended Mix)
Just to name a few….
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pipecock reply on March 12th, 2011 6:33 pm:
Only vocal remixes on your list, eh? If you like that MJ Cole rmx of Escoffery, definitely check out DJ Spinna’s rmx of “Days Like This”, such a sick track.
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w1b0 reply on March 13th, 2011 9:24 am:
Cheers!
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bit late on this. but here’s my 2 cents anyway
tom, you are talking shite!
and it’s kind of ironic that it’s a Carl Craig topic that kicks this off, considering he “was” one of the best remixers out there and i’ll cite an instrumental track as one of the best remixes of all time
Incognito – Out Of The Storm (C’s Special Mix)
ok, ok, the og is a vocal track but the remix only uses the instrumental parts
Yennek – Serena X (innerzone mix)
E-Dancer – Heavenly (juan’s magic mix)
almost ANY D May remix
besides, vocal tracks are the easiest to make lazy shitty remixes out of, so there’s actually tonnes more of them imo. I agree that remix projects in general are not a good idea as it’s always gonna be too forced, but to write off all remixes of a certain type is stupid imo, there’s no rules to this shit
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pipecock reply on March 14th, 2011 3:15 pm:
i’m not really writing anything off, just pointing out that remixes are quite prevalent (especially these days where everything is computer multitracked which makes it easy) yet 999 out of 1000 are pretty much worthless.
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mkb reply on March 14th, 2011 3:41 pm:
That’s just Sturgeon’s Law; why would remixes be a special case?
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gmos reply on March 18th, 2011 5:05 am:
@ pipecock
but you were saying that instrumental remixes are a waste of time as opposed to vocal remixes, which i don’t agree with. remixes of either kind or often lazy and not worthwhile, I don’t get how instrumentals are more susceptible to this.
I do, however, agree with you on remix projects/compilations, as I said they usually end up too forced, yet annoyingly they’ll always get good exposure on the strength of the original material.
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Jon McMillion – Love of Parking (JuJu & Jordash Remix) is pretty fuckin epic. Think the original is a vocal track, instrumental remix. Prefer it to the original.
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